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inserting CD index flags within a song

 
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dennisnan



Joined: 06 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

I want to insert CD index pts. within a song, then burn a CD which recognizes those different pts, but doesn't affect the audio file.
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Martin Hairer
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:27 am    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Quote:
I want to insert CD index pts. within a song, then burn a CD which
recognizes those different pts, but doesn't affect the audio file.

Sorry, Amadeus Pro can't do that. Maybe Toast? Regards,

Martin

HairerSoft
http://www.hairersoft.com/


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Sonic Purity



Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Martin Hairer wrote:
Quote:
I want to insert CD index pts. within a song, then burn a CD which
recognizes those different pts, but doesn't affect the audio file.

Sorry, Amadeus Pro can't do that. Maybe Toast? Regards,

Martin

HairerSoft
http://www.hairersoft.com/


Please, pretty please, a feature request for this... is now being presented.

Jam used to do index points years ago... support for that is long gone from Roxio products. The only product i know of that reliably does index points and works on a modern Mac OS is one of the more expensive iterations of BIAS Peak... allegedly (i do not have a new Peak and have not tested the ability).

Some of us really do use index points. This would be a huge positive selling point for Amadeus Pro for those of us with this need, relatively few though we may be (or are we?).

I hereby offer to make time in my busy schedule at your (Martin's) convenience to beta test index point support if you're willing (please) to give it a go... i have several older audio CD players that fully support index points.

The way i have thought of it working: If index point writing to CD is enabled, the user selects one of the marker colors to indicate index points (does Amadeus already do that for track breaks? If not, that would be nice to add in at the same time). Then the user just drops the markers where the index point number switches are to occur and writes the CD in Amadeus Pro... Done! Thatís far better than the old OS 9 version of Jam, even.

Personally, if necessary, i'd consider paying a $10-$20 upgrade fee to get this ability, working and well implemented. It is that important to me.

Other opinions on this?
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Gerard Bik



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Quote:

Other opinions on this?

------------------------

Do index points have an advantage over ordinary track breaks?

regards

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Lou Kash



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Sonic Purity wrote:
The only product i know of that reliably does index points and works on a modern Mac OS is one of the more expensive iterations of BIAS Peak

Wave Editor does any possible kinds of markers. It will also import Jam disk images. And it exports professional DDP files. While slightly pricier than Amadeus, in its class it's a true bargain.
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Lou Kash



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

GerardBik wrote:
Do index points have an advantage over ordinary track breaks?

Sure. They don't break tracks apart. ;)
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Sonic Purity



Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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Location: Pasadena, California, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Lou Kash wrote:
Sonic Purity wrote:
The only product i know of that reliably does index points and works on a modern Mac OS is one of the more expensive iterations of BIAS Peak

Wave Editor does any possible kinds of markers. It will also import Jam disk images. And it exports professional DDP files. While slightly pricier than Amadeus, in its class it's a true bargain.


Thanks for this, Lou... looks very promising. I'll try it on my next project.

GerardBik wrote:
Do index points have an advantage over ordinary track breaks?


The original intent as i understand it was for index points to be "jump to" points within a track, such as movements within a classical music piece, or more likely, certain themes or passages within a movement. Also when remastering an LP where one LP track was a medley of several short songs and the person in charge of the project wants to keep the LP track breaks, then the index points can allow appropriately equipped playback devices to jump to each short song. I also really wanted to use it in a recent digitization of a 1986 radio special i did, ironically on the CD format. This was a continuous one hour (more or less) program. The track breaks denoted the several large chunks of different parts of the program (intro, interview, FAQ, demonstrations, call-ins, and so on). Especially in the interview sections, i wanted to use index points as "jump to" points (like track jumps) for each question or interviewee (there were many in one of the sections). I was barely able to do this in my old 2.6.2 version of Jam (limited to 49 index points for some reason... i am pretty sure Red Book allows up to 99, though i would have to look that up), and that version of Jam is too old to support CD-Text, which i also wanted. The newer Jams and Toast that includes Jam support CD-Text, but not index points... at least not that function on the versions i have tested (a few claim it is there... Roxio support is lousy, and i have not been able to get it to work and am seeking alternatives).

Another way to think about this: If we compare CD mastering to a text outline, Track numbers would be the top-level of the hierarchy, and index points would be the first indented level: subtopics of a topic.

It is unfortunate that standard audio CD player support for index points is inconsistent and has generally diminished over the years, as all too many recording labels had no clue how to make use of them, and manufacturers needed to cut costs. It seems to me to be an easy, basic feature to implement (i seem to recall the Apple CD writing framework supports index points), and a shame to not be able to make use of them only because some writing software considers them not important. Should not be a cost issue like adding physical switches and display elements to a mass-produced standard audio CD player.

Like Diogenes, i keep looking for a better CD mastering software arrangement (for one-off CD-R discs in my case, not sending to replication houses, so far) that fully support both index points and CD-Text. Not only am i restricted to just index points with my old version of Jam, since i cannot get any newer Toast to acknowledge the existence of the index points, i have to use that version of Jam to write the CDs, restricting me to an old SCSI CD-RW drive that will not last forever. Amadeus Pro could be that program, yet is not presently. Maybe Wave Editor is, and maybe i need to once again change primary audio editing programs as i did in the late 1990s when i found Amadeus II. I really think Amadeus II and Pro have been and continue to be great programs, and when it is possible to add hopefully simple features like index point support, that would make Amadeus Pro even more awesome!

Keep the posts coming as relevant, and hopefully Martin will give index point support serious consideration. I'm here to help if i can.
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rfwilmut



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toast cannot make index points, and as said above they seem to have abandoned Jam. Waveburner does this, but was swallowed up by Apple and is now only available as part of Logic Pro at $500.
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Gerard Bik



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

<snip>
Quote:
. I also really wanted to use it in a recent digitization of a 1986 radio special i did, ironically on the CD format. This was a continuous one hour (more or less) program. The track breaks denoted the several large chunks of different parts of the program (intro, interview, FAQ, demonstrations, call-ins, and so on). Especially in the interview sections, i wanted to use index points as "jump to" points (like track jumps) for each question or interviewee (there were many in one of the sections). I was barely able to do
this in my old 2.6.2 version of Jam (limited to 49 index points for some reason... i am pretty sure Red Book allows up to 99, though i would have to look that up),

<snip>

Quote:
------------------------
))Sonic((


Now I see your point.

I used to make the cd's for a performing dance group where the parts were tracks with no gap. Never filled a cd with more than 15 minutes divided into 5 tracks.

The Red Book says max 99 tracks per cd and 99 index points per track. A total of 9801 points to jump to. This way an audio cd can be subdivided into snippets of 0.45 seconds. Seems a bit overkill Wink

gerards regards
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Martin Hairer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Quote:
Keep the posts coming as relevant, and hopefully Martin will give
index point support serious consideration. I'm here to help if i can.

You are right, Apple's API does seem to support index points, although
they warn that not every CD burner supports them. I've added some
experimental support for them in the version at <http://www.hairersoft.com/DOwnloads/AmadeusPro.zip
Quote:
but this is completely untested, as I have no CD player recognising
index points right now (I am in New York for a year and the "good" CD
player is back in the UK) and right now I don't even have a blank CD
lying around Wink

The way it works is that you should use colors to determine tracks and
every marker in a different color is used as an index point. Please
let me know if it works for you. Best wishes,

Martin

HairerSoft
http://www.hairersoft.com/


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Martin Hairer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Ooops, the link was of course <http://www.hairersoft.com/Downloads/AmadeusPro.zip
Quote:
.
Regards,

Martin

HairerSoft
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Lou Kash



Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Martin Hairer wrote:
The way it works is that you should use colors to determine tracks and every marker in a different color is used as an index point.

Can you please explain more clearly?
Is a particular color assigned to general markers and another one to the index points? (I don't have an urgent need to burn a CD with index points right now, so I didn't really test it either...)
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Martin Hairer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: inserting CD index flags within a song Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you please explain more clearly?
Is a particular color assigned to general markers and another one to
the index points? (I don't have an urgent need to burn a CD with
index points right now, so I didn't really test it either...)

Basically, all the markers that are not used to mark tracks are
interpreted as index points. So if you use black markers to mark
tracks (this can be set in the dialog that pops up when you hit
"Burn"), then all the coloured markers are interpreted as index
points. I realise that this is probably not expected behaviour for
most people, so I plan to make this a hidden feature in the final
release of 1.4 (so you would have to set a preference "by hand" to
enable it) and to make it controllable from the GUI in some future
release. Regards,

Martin

HairerSoft
http://www.hairersoft.com/


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Lou Kash



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I understand, thanks!
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